Discussion:
Microsoft Responds to the Evolution of Online Communities
(too old to reply)
Beverly Howard
2010-05-05 04:27:11 UTC
Permalink
and make it easier for active contributors to retain their influence. <<
What planet is the person who wrote this living on?

It's obvious that whomever composed this piece of advertising copy has
never participated in an nntp forum, and, as someone who responds on
both nntp and web interface forums, it's also obvious that they don't
have a clue how much additional time and effort is require on web
interfaces... _AND_ the microsoft web interfaces are masters at making
responding difficult and time consuming.

Makes sense though... microsoft is obviously taking the cost of the peer
responders into consideration and concluding that they can waste their
time with impunity. It addition, all those pesky responders who tell it
like it is will diminish and the help forums can move on to their real
goal... advertising.

Did I make my feelings clear enough?

Beverly Howard
Dan Freeman
2010-05-05 12:28:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Beverly Howard
Did I make my feelings clear enough?
:-)

Everyone here agrees with you, of course, but you know as well as I do
that nobody at MSFT will even bother reading it.

Dan
Michael Bickel
2010-05-05 13:40:17 UTC
Permalink
bad, if you are right... if they don't care what their customers think, well
they proved it already with VFP and other products.
What me concerns, farewell Microsoft.

I will for sure not use this kind of "entertainment" because i don't have
the time to jump from one web forum to another
and wait for page loading plus enjoying ads...

Yours
Michael Bickel

(passive reader of the english NG and more active user of the german
version..., at least i was)
Post by Dan Freeman
Post by Beverly Howard
Did I make my feelings clear enough?
:-)
Everyone here agrees with you, of course, but you know as well as I do
that nobody at MSFT will even bother reading it.
Dan
Craig Berntson
2010-05-05 15:15:38 UTC
Permalink
The decision comes down to the same decision to stop work on VFP... money.
Microsoft no longer wishes to spend money on supporting newsgroups. Their
decision has been debated for some time in private groups and forums and
will not change.
--
----
Craig Berntson
Microsoft MVP
Post by Michael Bickel
bad, if you are right... if they don't care what their customers think,
well they proved it already with VFP and other products.
What me concerns, farewell Microsoft.
I will for sure not use this kind of "entertainment" because i don't have
the time to jump from one web forum to another
and wait for page loading plus enjoying ads...
Yours
Michael Bickel
(passive reader of the english NG and more active user of the german
version..., at least i was)
Post by Dan Freeman
Post by Beverly Howard
Did I make my feelings clear enough?
:-)
Everyone here agrees with you, of course, but you know as well as I do
that nobody at MSFT will even bother reading it.
Dan
Michael Bickel
2010-05-05 18:12:13 UTC
Permalink
even smaller companies can afford it...

MS will be the only one of the NGs i use (a lot of them small companies...)
who is not able to have this money...???
hmmmm, thought at least Windows 7 would bring some money...

Yours
Michael Bickel
Post by Craig Berntson
The decision comes down to the same decision to stop work on VFP... money.
Microsoft no longer wishes to spend money on supporting newsgroups. Their
decision has been debated for some time in private groups and forums and
will not change.
--
----
Craig Berntson
Microsoft MVP
Post by Michael Bickel
bad, if you are right... if they don't care what their customers think,
well they proved it already with VFP and other products.
What me concerns, farewell Microsoft.
I will for sure not use this kind of "entertainment" because i don't have
the time to jump from one web forum to another
and wait for page loading plus enjoying ads...
Yours
Michael Bickel
(passive reader of the english NG and more active user of the german
version..., at least i was)
Post by Dan Freeman
Post by Beverly Howard
Did I make my feelings clear enough?
:-)
Everyone here agrees with you, of course, but you know as well as I do
that nobody at MSFT will even bother reading it.
Dan
Villi Bernaroli
2010-05-06 10:36:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Bickel
even smaller companies can afford it...
MS will be the only one of the NGs i use (a lot of them small
companies...) who is not able to have this money...???
hmmmm, thought at least Windows 7 would bring some money...
The issue is more complex: if a small operation sets up a newsgroup ther
will be few people using it and very few (if not zero) spam and junk posts.
MS newsgroups, instead, are attended by a huge amount of users and
constantly receive a massive quantity of spam and junk posts.
So MS has 3 options:
1) pay people to keep all these groups clean
2) let the groups became spam & junk ridden, which would give a very bad
image of MS
3) close the groups and move to login-based fora

Money says 3.
--
Villi Bernaroli, Italy
VFP, SOAP, MS SQLserver, MySQL, Oracle
Al Marino
2010-05-06 16:54:35 UTC
Permalink
baloney
a 2 M company may spend 2 K for a newsgroup and knows it is well worth it
are you telling us that MS cost for newsgroups is 20 M or more ?

what you are supporting is a company run by accountants
in the long run, a serious mistake
(but then again, just take the money and run, like our financial
institutions)

al
Post by Villi Bernaroli
Post by Michael Bickel
even smaller companies can afford it...
MS will be the only one of the NGs i use (a lot of them small
companies...) who is not able to have this money...???
hmmmm, thought at least Windows 7 would bring some money...
The issue is more complex: if a small operation sets up a newsgroup ther
will be few people using it and very few (if not zero) spam and junk
posts. MS newsgroups, instead, are attended by a huge amount of users and
constantly receive a massive quantity of spam and junk posts.
1) pay people to keep all these groups clean
2) let the groups became spam & junk ridden, which would give a very bad
image of MS
3) close the groups and move to login-based fora
Money says 3.
--
Villi Bernaroli, Italy
VFP, SOAP, MS SQLserver, MySQL, Oracle
Villi Bernaroli
2010-05-10 10:28:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Al Marino
baloney
a 2 M company may spend 2 K for a newsgroup and knows it is well
worth it are you telling us that MS cost for newsgroups is 20 M or
more ?
*You* are writing numbers, not me. They just want to save, nothing else.
Post by Al Marino
what you are supporting is a company run by accountants
supporting? LOL, you must have misread my post
--
Villi Bernaroli, Italy
VFP, SOAP, MS SQLserver, MySQL, Oracle
Craig Berntson
2010-05-10 15:38:10 UTC
Permalink
I suspect dealing with spam in the newsgroups is the single biggest cost of
newsgroups support.
--
----
Craig Berntson
Microsoft MVP
Post by Al Marino
baloney
a 2 M company may spend 2 K for a newsgroup and knows it is well worth it
are you telling us that MS cost for newsgroups is 20 M or more ?
what you are supporting is a company run by accountants
in the long run, a serious mistake
(but then again, just take the money and run, like our financial
institutions)
al
Al Marino
2010-05-10 17:56:42 UTC
Permalink
the purpose of my simplistic $ was to emphasize that without full info, it
is impossible to judge this move
you may be correct but, on the face of it, the cost seems unlikely to be
significant; if this is wrong, it should be so stated with details

I have found that once a decision is made, disclosure is almost always
better whether it is this or downsizing or mergers or whatever and that
failure to disclose details is usually to hide what the principals do not
want known and usually for not very "noble" reasons (ie for their benefit
and no one else's)

the reference to "accountants" refers to the situation of a culture that
focuses on controlling cost versus providing value

your answer and the one referring to the virtues of combining hold merit
but that these and the 3rd or 4th answers does not engender great trust

al
Post by Craig Berntson
I suspect dealing with spam in the newsgroups is the single biggest cost
of newsgroups support.
--
----
Craig Berntson
Microsoft MVP
Post by Al Marino
baloney
a 2 M company may spend 2 K for a newsgroup and knows it is well worth it
are you telling us that MS cost for newsgroups is 20 M or more ?
what you are supporting is a company run by accountants
in the long run, a serious mistake
(but then again, just take the money and run, like our financial
institutions)
al
Dan Freeman
2010-05-10 18:42:21 UTC
Permalink
the purpose of my simplistic $ was to emphasize that without full info, it is
impossible to judge this move
you may be correct but, on the face of it, the cost seems unlikely to be
significant; if this is wrong, it should be so stated with details
I have found that once a decision is made, disclosure is almost always better
whether it is this or downsizing or mergers or whatever and that failure to
disclose details is usually to hide what the principals do not want known and
usually for not very "noble" reasons (ie for their benefit and no one else's)
the reference to "accountants" refers to the situation of a culture that
focuses on controlling cost versus providing value
your answer and the one referring to the virtues of combining hold merit
but that these and the 3rd or 4th answers does not engender great trust
al
Note that Craig does not speak for Microsoft, nor do I, nor does anyone
else who will actually answer you here. Microsoft is closed on this
issue. The decision is made. Reasons are moot.

Some of us remember how we got here. About 10 years ago, Microsoft had
viable and active communities on Compuserve. Someone at Microsoft
decided that "the internet" was a better place to be so all Compuserve
forums were abandoned and we were told to move to usenet instead.

Never mind the fact that MS did not at that time have any viable
software that could actually *use* usenet. Go there anyway. A good
percentage of the Fox community told MSFT where to shove it and moved
to web-based forums such as Foxite or UT, no-doubt angering the
collective by refusing assimilation.

Now, 10 years later, MSFT is *still* trying to hammer community into a
form that it can control. The accountants do come into play, but
control is the primary driver. If they cannot control it they cannot
measure it, and if they cannot measure it they cannot justify funding
(ANY FUNDING) for it.

But whatever the reason ..... fool me once, shame on you. Fool me
twice, shame on me. I'm hesitant to rely on anything provided by
Microsoft. They've proven themselves inept and clueless time and time
again, and they're far too willing to throw out the baby with the bath
water.

Dan
Villi Bernaroli
2010-05-12 10:33:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Freeman
Now, 10 years later, MSFT is *still* trying to hammer community into a
form that it can control. The accountants do come into play, but
control is the primary driver. If they cannot control it they cannot
measure it, and if they cannot measure it they cannot justify funding
(ANY FUNDING) for it.
Another possible reason I was guessing: what about the ownership of forum
posts vs usenet posts? IIRC usenet posts are somehow property of theyr
author, while forum posts usually are property of the forum owner.
Who knows if this made a difference in MS's choice to move away from
usenet...
--
Villi Bernaroli, Italy
VFP, SOAP, MS SQLserver, MySQL, Oracle
Craig Berntson
2010-05-06 15:07:30 UTC
Permalink
It's incorrect to assume that just because Windows 7 makes money that the
money will fund all areas of the company. In the end, newsgroups and forums
are cost centers. And those costs are covered by all products.
--
----
Craig Berntson
Microsoft MVP
Post by Michael Bickel
even smaller companies can afford it...
MS will be the only one of the NGs i use (a lot of them small
companies...) who is not able to have this money...???
hmmmm, thought at least Windows 7 would bring some money...
Yours
Michael Bickel
Post by Craig Berntson
The decision comes down to the same decision to stop work on VFP...
money. Microsoft no longer wishes to spend money on supporting
newsgroups. Their decision has been debated for some time in private
groups and forums and will not change.
--
----
Craig Berntson
Microsoft MVP
Post by Michael Bickel
bad, if you are right... if they don't care what their customers think,
well they proved it already with VFP and other products.
What me concerns, farewell Microsoft.
I will for sure not use this kind of "entertainment" because i don't
have the time to jump from one web forum to another
and wait for page loading plus enjoying ads...
Yours
Michael Bickel
(passive reader of the english NG and more active user of the german
version..., at least i was)
Post by Dan Freeman
Post by Beverly Howard
Did I make my feelings clear enough?
:-)
Everyone here agrees with you, of course, but you know as well as I do
that nobody at MSFT will even bother reading it.
Dan
Al Marino
2010-05-06 15:42:38 UTC
Permalink
we are not idiots
of course newsgroups and forums are cost centers
so is program development, advertising, training, personnel, and damn near
everything else in this software game
there are two ways to look at support costs
1. will they generate business, loyalty, excitement, etc (the old MS)
or
2. will the loss of goodwill, programmers, community, etc be less than the
cost (the new MS)

my response is:
- I bet that the "costs" and "loss" are not available so someone may
judge
- my experience in large business suggests that this smells like someone's
decision higher up the food chain, without real evaluation
- once a company starts down the number 2. track above, they are on the
downhill slide (which may take 30 years)

al
Post by Craig Berntson
It's incorrect to assume that just because Windows 7 makes money that the
money will fund all areas of the company. In the end, newsgroups and
forums are cost centers. And those costs are covered by all products.
--
----
Craig Berntson
Microsoft MVP
Post by Michael Bickel
even smaller companies can afford it...
MS will be the only one of the NGs i use (a lot of them small
companies...) who is not able to have this money...???
hmmmm, thought at least Windows 7 would bring some money...
Yours
Michael Bickel
Post by Craig Berntson
The decision comes down to the same decision to stop work on VFP...
money. Microsoft no longer wishes to spend money on supporting
newsgroups. Their decision has been debated for some time in private
groups and forums and will not change.
--
----
Craig Berntson
Microsoft MVP
Post by Michael Bickel
bad, if you are right... if they don't care what their customers think,
well they proved it already with VFP and other products.
What me concerns, farewell Microsoft.
I will for sure not use this kind of "entertainment" because i don't
have the time to jump from one web forum to another
and wait for page loading plus enjoying ads...
Yours
Michael Bickel
(passive reader of the english NG and more active user of the german
version..., at least i was)
Post by Dan Freeman
Post by Beverly Howard
Did I make my feelings clear enough?
:-)
Everyone here agrees with you, of course, but you know as well as I do
that nobody at MSFT will even bother reading it.
Dan
Michael Bickel
2010-05-06 16:22:13 UTC
Permalink
of course, i didn't mean that specially W7 is funding the NGs...
The message was, a company like MS is for sure able to fund it.

I know a lot of smaller companies with less money and they are able to run
NGs
In comparison these smaller companies (where i am a customer) care (and
listen) a lot more, maybe because they have to while
the bigger ones... (MS, Apple - just look at the latest developments and
others) just don't care.

Yours
Michael
Post by Craig Berntson
It's incorrect to assume that just because Windows 7 makes money that the
money will fund all areas of the company. In the end, newsgroups and
forums are cost centers. And those costs are covered by all products.
--
----
Craig Berntson
Microsoft MVP
Post by Michael Bickel
even smaller companies can afford it...
MS will be the only one of the NGs i use (a lot of them small
companies...) who is not able to have this money...???
hmmmm, thought at least Windows 7 would bring some money...
Yours
Michael Bickel
Post by Craig Berntson
The decision comes down to the same decision to stop work on VFP...
money. Microsoft no longer wishes to spend money on supporting
newsgroups. Their decision has been debated for some time in private
groups and forums and will not change.
--
----
Craig Berntson
Microsoft MVP
Post by Michael Bickel
bad, if you are right... if they don't care what their customers think,
well they proved it already with VFP and other products.
What me concerns, farewell Microsoft.
I will for sure not use this kind of "entertainment" because i don't
have the time to jump from one web forum to another
and wait for page loading plus enjoying ads...
Yours
Michael Bickel
(passive reader of the english NG and more active user of the german
version..., at least i was)
Post by Dan Freeman
Post by Beverly Howard
Did I make my feelings clear enough?
:-)
Everyone here agrees with you, of course, but you know as well as I do
that nobody at MSFT will even bother reading it.
Dan
Craig Berntson
2010-05-10 15:36:19 UTC
Permalink
A those smaller companies will get LOTS less spam in their newsgroups. I
suspect dealing with newsgroup spam is the single biggest cost MS has in
newsgroups.
--
----
Craig Berntson
Microsoft MVP
Post by Michael Bickel
of course, i didn't mean that specially W7 is funding the NGs...
The message was, a company like MS is for sure able to fund it.
I know a lot of smaller companies with less money and they are able to run
NGs
In comparison these smaller companies (where i am a customer) care (and
listen) a lot more, maybe because they have to while
the bigger ones... (MS, Apple - just look at the latest developments and
others) just don't care.
Yours
Michael
Gene Wirchenko
2010-05-06 21:49:08 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 6 May 2010 09:07:30 -0600, "Craig Berntson"
Post by Craig Berntson
It's incorrect to assume that just because Windows 7 makes money that the
money will fund all areas of the company. In the end, newsgroups and forums
are cost centers. And those costs are covered by all products.
set sarcasm on
And USENET newsgroups are just so terribly expensive.
comp.databases.xbase.fox is moribund but still exists. Who is paying
the massive bills for it?
set sarcasm off
Expression evaluated to an illegal value for this post.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
Al Marino
2010-05-05 18:25:01 UTC
Permalink
I think many here would agree that your answer is somewhat disingenuous.

it would be easy to change to something like "only one forum for each
language/product"
then the "cost" to maintain would be so small that you couldn't even find it
on any budget
besides, I bet someone at MS would do it for free for each forum in their
spare time

al
Post by Craig Berntson
The decision comes down to the same decision to stop work on VFP... money.
Microsoft no longer wishes to spend money on supporting newsgroups. Their
decision has been debated for some time in private groups and forums and
will not change.
--
----
Craig Berntson
Microsoft MVP
Post by Michael Bickel
bad, if you are right... if they don't care what their customers think,
well they proved it already with VFP and other products.
What me concerns, farewell Microsoft.
I will for sure not use this kind of "entertainment" because i don't have
the time to jump from one web forum to another
and wait for page loading plus enjoying ads...
Yours
Michael Bickel
(passive reader of the english NG and more active user of the german
version..., at least i was)
Post by Dan Freeman
Post by Beverly Howard
Did I make my feelings clear enough?
:-)
Everyone here agrees with you, of course, but you know as well as I do
that nobody at MSFT will even bother reading it.
Dan
Al Marino
2010-05-05 23:50:27 UTC
Permalink
sorry, meant "one newgroup" ,,,
Post by Al Marino
I think many here would agree that your answer is somewhat disingenuous.
it would be easy to change to something like "only one forum for each
language/product"
then the "cost" to maintain would be so small that you couldn't even find
it on any budget
besides, I bet someone at MS would do it for free for each forum in their
spare time
al
Post by Craig Berntson
The decision comes down to the same decision to stop work on VFP...
money. Microsoft no longer wishes to spend money on supporting
newsgroups. Their decision has been debated for some time in private
groups and forums and will not change.
--
----
Craig Berntson
Microsoft MVP
Post by Michael Bickel
bad, if you are right... if they don't care what their customers think,
well they proved it already with VFP and other products.
What me concerns, farewell Microsoft.
I will for sure not use this kind of "entertainment" because i don't
have the time to jump from one web forum to another
and wait for page loading plus enjoying ads...
Yours
Michael Bickel
(passive reader of the english NG and more active user of the german
version..., at least i was)
Post by Dan Freeman
Post by Beverly Howard
Did I make my feelings clear enough?
:-)
Everyone here agrees with you, of course, but you know as well as I do
that nobody at MSFT will even bother reading it.
Dan
Dan Freeman
2010-05-05 22:36:28 UTC
Permalink
As Judge Judy says, "don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining". <s>

Dan
Post by Craig Berntson
The decision comes down to the same decision to stop work on VFP... money.
Microsoft no longer wishes to spend money on supporting newsgroups. Their
decision has been debated for some time in private groups and forums and will
not change.
--
----
Craig Berntson
Microsoft MVP
Post by Michael Bickel
bad, if you are right... if they don't care what their customers think,
well they proved it already with VFP and other products.
What me concerns, farewell Microsoft.
I will for sure not use this kind of "entertainment" because i don't have
the time to jump from one web forum to another
and wait for page loading plus enjoying ads...
Yours
Michael Bickel
(passive reader of the english NG and more active user of the german
version..., at least i was)
Post by Dan Freeman
Post by Beverly Howard
Did I make my feelings clear enough?
:-)
Everyone here agrees with you, of course, but you know as well as I do
that nobody at MSFT will even bother reading it.
Dan
Al Marino
2010-05-05 23:56:13 UTC
Permalink
lol
al
Post by Dan Freeman
As Judge Judy says, "don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining". <s>
Dan
Post by Craig Berntson
The decision comes down to the same decision to stop work on VFP...
money. Microsoft no longer wishes to spend money on supporting
newsgroups. Their decision has been debated for some time in private
groups and forums and will not change.
--
----
Craig Berntson
Microsoft MVP
Post by Michael Bickel
bad, if you are right... if they don't care what their customers think,
well they proved it already with VFP and other products.
What me concerns, farewell Microsoft.
I will for sure not use this kind of "entertainment" because i don't
have the time to jump from one web forum to another
and wait for page loading plus enjoying ads...
Yours
Michael Bickel
(passive reader of the english NG and more active user of the german
version..., at least i was)
Post by Dan Freeman
Post by Beverly Howard
Did I make my feelings clear enough?
:-)
Everyone here agrees with you, of course, but you know as well as I do
that nobody at MSFT will even bother reading it.
Dan
Jan Bucek
2010-05-06 10:27:21 UTC
Permalink
Dne 4.5.2010 21:56, ***@microsoft.com napsal(a):

This decision of Microsoft is logical, they have more important things
to do:

http://www.microsoft.com/education/competencies/humor.mspx
Date 5/4/2010
Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin progressively closing down the Microsoft public newsgroups to enrich conversations in the rapidly-growing forum platform. This decision is in response to worldwide market trends and evolving customer needs.
Microsoft continues to invest in forums to reduce customer effort, consolidate community venues and make it easier for active contributors to retain their influence. Forums provide a healthy community environment with less spam and make answers easier to find by customers and search engines. Additionally, forums offer a better user and off-topic management platform that will improve customer satisfaction by facilitating discussions in a clean space.
We understand that some newsgroups are still active, and important to the community. In the coming days and weeks, we will be rolling out tools and resources to minimize disruption to the community discussions.
We are working diligently on providing additional resources and information in local languages later this week. In the meantime, please refer to the official Microsoft Newsgroup website http://www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/default.mspx concerning this issue. The Microsoft Newsgroup website will be made available in additional languages in the next few days.
swdev2
2010-05-19 05:54:27 UTC
Permalink
Crystal Clear !

--
===================
William Sanders / EFG VFP / mySql / MS-SQL
www.efgroup.net/vfpwebhosting
www.terrafox.net
Post by Beverly Howard
and make it easier for active contributors to retain their influence. <<
What planet is the person who wrote this living on?
It's obvious that whomever composed this piece of advertising copy has
never participated in an nntp forum, and, as someone who responds on
both nntp and web interface forums, it's also obvious that they don't
have a clue how much additional time and effort is require on web
interfaces... _AND_ the microsoft web interfaces are masters at making
responding difficult and time consuming.
Makes sense though... microsoft is obviously taking the cost of the peer
responders into consideration and concluding that they can waste their
time with impunity. It addition, all those pesky responders who tell it
like it is will diminish and the help forums can move on to their real
goal... advertising.
Did I make my feelings clear enough?
Beverly Howard
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